God is the inevitable response to the question: where did it all come from?
But that begs the question: where did God come from?
And you must respond: God is eternal
But if that is so, then by the same logic isn’t it just as likely that “it all” is eternal, without need for a Progenitor? If God can be eternal, why can’t the Universe, thus saving us a huge theological step? Occam’s Razor insists on it.
In the question of creation, God is a cop-out. The original Deus Ex Machina. By definition, in fact.
As soon as you waver from blind faith, you may as well give up the ghost (pun intended). You cannot logically argue the existence of God without first acknowledging the validity of the argument against. As soon as you enter that argument you’ve lost. There is simply no evidence out there that wasn’t first created by us.
That said, I do fully acknowledge that the reverse is also true. I can’t tell you conclusively that God does not exist. What do I know? I’m only human. I’ve only had the same books and stories to refer to as the rest of you. Therefore I must claim agnosticism out of simple honesty with myself. As nice as it would be to let someone else be ultimately responsible for my fate, I can’t take that easy road.
They’ll tell you that the Bible is proof. To them I say only this: do you believe everything you read?
Others will tell you that there is no God, or that there are hundreds of them. They don’t know what they’re talking about either, so try not to be threatened.
I don’t want to take away from those who have found faith. For you, God is every bit as real as He needs to be. Or She. Or They. It doesn’t really matter. The face & the name are irrelevant.
Anyone who delves into the history of religion with an open mind quickly sees patterns emerging, especially with Christianity and its derivatives. This is my primary reason for skepticism with congregational (read: expansionist) religion. The creators of the Christian faith were clever. I’m not saying they were diabolic, just clever. If I were to start a religion, I’d begin by telling everyone that they’d been worshipping my god all along, just under a different guise. This is why we have Easter, and Christmas on the 25th. It’s why we have Communion and it’s even why we have a martyr who rose from the dead. It’s really, truly, honestly: all there, originating with other religions dating much farther back. It just made sense to co-opt these rituals and holy days into the Christian faith. If you can’t beat them, absorb them. Most telling of all- monotheism itself. Take the one-god theory, add a martyr a few hundred years later, and you’ve got an instant brand new faith with all the hard work of beating down other gods done for you.
A post like this has to spawn all sorts of religious ire. That’s the nature of faith, in my experience. A lot if indignant blustering, a lot of blind sanctimonious stubborness, and, rarely, some quiet assertion. Those last are the ones I’m left with respect for. They acknowledge that all the evidence for the existence of God is circular, and they cast all that away. They have found the important part- real faith. You don’t need to defend God’s existence if you have faith. As soon as you try, you’re doomed. It’s enough for you that you’ve felt him (or her, or them). You keep him close to you, and you welcome others when they show interest.
You certainly don’t knock on my door, much less annihilate my congregation. But then, that’s just my opinion. Your God may tell you different. For some of you it’s perfectly acceptable to murder others by the thousands and millions just because their faith differs from your own.
Don’t laugh, Christians. I’m talking about you. Read your history. And yes, I’m talking about many other religions as well, but I’ve already told you before- Christianity is still exponentially the prize-winner. Thanks, Pope, for apologizing for that pesky crusade business.
*sigh* Sorry. I get carried away with this pretty easily. I just wanna meet the guy with the Time Bomb.
Ah yes, the nail on the head. The fact that faith is exactly what it is. It’s a belief without proof. There’s a difference between blind faith and faith. Blind faith is an acceptance regardless of the facts, faith is an acceptance respecting the facts.
COMMENT:
So, I agree with the bottom half of your post. It’s the top half of reasoning we need to talk about. OH! There is SO much to say. As usual, you’ve swamped my mind but with never the time to type it all out. argh! OK, I’ll address one question, or rather ask one question: Knowing that the universe IS NOT eternal (i.e. it had a beginning with a finite age) how and why did it start? Physicists have not yet answered this one and if they ever do (which for several reasons they won’t, two of which are the finite speed of light and as recently discovered the finite speed of gravity), I assure you that there will be an element of “blind faith” that with come along with the answer. There is a lot of “blind faith” in the physics world. a surprising amount. we may be asking many of the important questions but answering the real tough ones invokes faith in both of Xentac’s definitions.
Anyway, creating/expanding a religion by humanity is inherently flawed so I completely agree with your rant. Too bad the hugeness of their mistakes/tactics are so devestating to so many because in isolated cases, christianity can really make some people’s lives much better whether it’s Truth or not.
happy thursday!
Oh religion definitely has its usefulness, the most obvious being keeping an uneducated population in line. I’ve never said religion was without function. Just the opposite.
As for the Universe having a beginning- what was there before? I was running with the idea that the Big Bang is preceded by a Big Crush, where gravity does its thing and everything collapses together (an opposing process which takes about as long as the exploding phase- expand, contract). The laws of the conservation of energy are preserved and we have an eternal cycle.
ev, I was waiting for a response about what was there before the Big Bang… I think it’s a good question, and having a good answer would help to complete me ;o)
Hey Ev! I love listening (reading) you debate with the dj. You brought up a lot of things that I would have loved to say, but I never seem to have the right words. Well done.
Ev- favored or not, what does that leave us with? What did we expand from? Are we just the exit effluvium of a black hole in another probability? And where are we going? You have yet to convince me that everything is expanding away from everything else (because I maintain that’s categorically impossible) so therefore we must be moving FROM something, even a multitude of somethings. Hanging the BB Theory on the wall for the moment, what are you offering? Also- by our conversation yesterday you implied, intentionally or not, that gravity exerts its force increasingly, like pressing on the gas, over time, which leads me to think that inevitably it all has to come together. And yes, I know that’s simplisitic, but it serves my argument so I’m running with it. *grin*
The idea of such an oscillating universe has not been the favoured theory for a couple of decades. The latest observational evidence shows that the Universe is “Flat” or “Open” meaning it will never recollapse on itself due to gravity, thus crushing the Big Crush theory.
and yes, on a large scale, religion may be used to keep the ignorant population in line, but my point was that on an individual basis, it can dramatically improve a person’s life and give him/her purpose that he/she may not find elsewhere. All I’m saying is that it can also be used for Good and not exclusively for Evil.
An obvious God complex? Where? And how can you point that finger without first admitting that yes, here you are again, calling the kettle black. Just gotta throw gas on the fire, don’t you? Buddy, do me a favor- next time you want to post, study up a bit, yes? I really need you to come in here and not look like an idiot. You’re bringing the average IQ of my readership down.
Primary motivation for the Pope’s endorsement of Crusades: expansionist.
Primary motivation for nobility involvement: expansionist.
Primary motivation for peasantry involvement: ignorance.
D00d, no one has debated any of this for ages. Maybe it’s time to update your textbooks? The very idea that you could claim that the Crusades were in ANY way “defensive” screams at the hopeless misinformation you’re trying to swim through. I can’t even blame you. You’re just too uninformed.
As for my God complex, once again we have to explain to the smaller minds that this is MY blog. If you don’t like it, go away. Hell, even if you love it I still don’t think you’d be missed.
Tread softly, buddy, lest I smite thee.
Give me a break DJ. How can someone with such an obvious God complex even comment on this. You really think you are the center of the universe, don’t you? Narcissism oozes from everything you write. Your new banner picture speaks to that. The all-knowing DJ starting down from the heavens. Spreading his wisdom to the “uneducated population”. As for the crusades comment… Maybe YOU should read your history books for once. There are many reasons why Christians took up the cross and went into battle. And not only because they wanted to kill people of other faiths. At that time Christendom was under constant attack from Muslim hordes from the East. The crusades were largely a defensive measure as Christian Europe saw many previously Christian lands being swallowed up by Islam. Sure, it may have turned into a bloodbath, but that says more about the infallibility and wickedness of man than the teachings of Christ.
So very, very true. How the hell are we so the same, DJ?
*sigh* Organized religion. Take our one universal fear – death – and play on it. “None of us knows what lies beyond our own mortality, but I can guarantee you that if you sign your life away to us, we’ll put you somewhere good. Otherwise, it’s all just damnation.”
I vote for spirituality over organized religion. ‘Cos I know in my heart there is something greater (I talk to SOMETHING when I am in trouble… haha), but I also know that whatever it is, it cannot be captured in a book and indoctrinated.
I knew it would. You thought I was talking about Science vs Religion?
*snicker*
Thanks to all for intelligent input. Keep it coming. That’s why I’m doing all this.
We were talking about how an Eternal Universe is just as valid an idea as an Eternal God, yes?
This post’s title just became increasingly more appropriate.
Thanks Lady for the compliment. and Xentac, I shall get back to your question later this afternoon. promise. this coversation could truly suck up my entire day. but I love it! I shall be back … (I even appreciate Buddyboy’s interjections cuz, hey, I love to watch the butting of heads. love it!) but thanks for getting the topic back on track.
Personally, I think the concept of “Eternal” is false. It all comes down to fear — fear of death, of the unknown… If we can believe there’s something out there that won’t ever change — an absolute concept with no beginning and no end, outside of our linear way of thinking — then maybe we can make some sense of our short, fragile lives.
How do you create meaning for your life if you don’t know what happens when it’s over? If you can’t see it as a complete picture, then how do you analyze it or make sense out of it? So many people are obsessed with understanding things, making sense out of them — understanding the TRUTH. But it’s completely false to think you can separate yourself from something and understand it completely, or that you see the “absolute truth” – as if it’s this magical essence floating around. How can anyone think they will ever really know how the universe came into being? Or how it will end? Or prove that God or Buddha or Allah or whoever really exists? If you choose religion, fine. If that’s what you beleive, great, but you have to accept that your belief is YOUR perception of reality. You can’t make everyone see your way, and why try to kill those people who see the world differently? If they’re wrong in the end, well, it’s their loss, isn’t it?
The same goes for science — how do you really prove how the universe began? Or how life began?
Does the idea that we came from some primordial ooze sound that much more credible than the idea that some spiritual being decided to create live one day eons and eons ago? How can anyone have the gall to say “this is how it is and there’s no way it could be any different”.
Personally, I don’t think there are any absolutes — nothing that you can say is absolutely, unequivically and overarchingly true for every single being on this earth. But, then again, that’s just my perception.
I think I got off track with this, and seem to be rambling, but hopefully someone catches my meaning! Thanks for the opportunity to revisit my honours thesis DJ! :)
O_O
Wow.
That was hawt.
I’m all quivery. I think I need to sit down…
good evening, folks! glad to see so much brain-power going into this comment box. love it!
So, Xentac, way back you asked “what was there before the Big Bang.” The answer given by Science, Judiasm, and Buddhism (to some extent), and probably others that I don’t know of yet, is NOTHINGNESS. They all agree that the universe was created/formed ‘ex-nihilo’. Now, it’s not to say Nothingness is really nothing. There is potentiality in the Nothingness. In physics, we talk about the Nothingness as something that we cannot describe with the physical entities we know of, like light, matter, and energy. We don’t think that the Laws of Physics as we observe and understand worked in that ‘time’ (which I use carefully since there was no Time during the stage of Nothingness.
Mischiff, your comment of a few hours ago had a bunch of questions:
“what does that leave us with?”
whatever you want. it’s a take it or leave it type of discussion. you can either ask the questions or not. But if you keep on asking, then we’ll get closer to the TRUTH. And as crx girl above said quite truthfully, we will never understand the Absolute Truth. But I sure as hell will try to get closer to it!
“What did we expand from?”
we are expanding for the first energy boost of the Big Bang and the Inflation period that happened soon after. observational evidence suggests this kind of Inflation or exponential growth of the universe but there is not physical explanation yet for it. the theory just fits the experiments very well.
“Are we just the exit effluvium of a black hole in another probability?”
quite possibly, but I’d never be able to observe that so I’ll stick with what is accessible to me.
“And where are we going?”
well, spiritually, it’s up to you to decide where you’re going. Physically, well, you’ll die and the sun will expand and swallow up the earth on its way to a supernova. universally? well, it should continue to expand forever. it’s an interesting question for me to ask why there is an obvious beginning to time but no definie end? any thoughts?
“You have yet to convince me that everything is expanding away from everything else (because I maintain that’s categorically impossible) so therefore we must be moving FROM something, even a multitude of somethings.”
If you are not open to an explanation, I won’t bother but if you are, we can sit down with a piece of paper sometime and I’ll try my best. But if you have any faith (dangerous word choice) in the scientific method, you’ll believe me when I tell you that this have been observationally proven.
“Hanging the BB Theory on the wall for the moment, what are you offering?”
I’m offering the alternative that it is not just science or religion that have all the answers but rather a delicate balance of both. (and I’m not talking about organized patriarical religions here.)
“Also- by our conversation yesterday you implied, intentionally or not, that gravity exerts its force increasingly, like pressing on the gas, over time, which leads me to think that inevitably it all has to come together. And yes, I know that’s simplisitic, but it serves my argument so I’m running with it. *grin*”
Sorry if I didn’t explain myself well yesterday. I was too busy licking bbq sauce off my fingers. But no, I didn’t mean that gravity’s force increases with time. It’s just that the force is felt in a finite time rather than instantaneously. that’s all. but once the force has propogated it remains constant as long as the two bodies in question remain in the same relative locations. (and by ‘bodies’ that includes hottie waitresses as well as astronomical bodies, in case you were worried.)
phew… back to the thesis. that was good breat. :)
Just for the record, Aaron, I never oppose my views.
Ev, you give me food for thought. I will return. Keep it up, all y’all!
Bush: shortsighted, small-minded gaybasher. I’m so surprised. GO CONSERVATIVES! WAY TO RESIST PROGRESS! (and yes I voted on the opinion poll- another no-brainer)
ahem, back to our theo-philosophical debate…
Great convo guys!
Pro-Something-More: 1
Not-So-Much: 1
*grin*
I’m inclined to say that while Ultimate Truth might be the ideal, Just Don’t Hurt/Convert is a nice first step.
Why must we oppose our views on others when it just doesn’t matter? *shakes head* Just saw this today –> http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/30/bush.gay.marriage/index.html
look what happens when I am at work. Outside. Without a computer. In the sun.
So much to say and I have to go to bed too. Heh. I guess I sorta sum it up like crxgirl – people make shit up to explain stuff they can’t explain. Many religions in this world, and many are totally different. Mostly they take local lore or even enviroment to explain life.
A great example is the Native Americans. Tribes all over North America have different explanations for everything. Not one defined religion. If you were to sit in one particular native settlement after dark you would see the moon rise at the same angle of a local mountain, as a matter of fact the moon to them looked like it was climbing the mountain to get into the sky. This is how they explained this. I can tell you many legends that made up their local religions. Some of them are even funny.
I digress. I am interested in the principal of a Lord of The Flies scenario. Take a group of children growing up alone. Would they notice colour or race and would they form a religion? If they did, I bet it has nothing to do with Jesus. or God. or the Holy Ghost, erm..Spirit. Ah crap, this is too confusing, I don’t think they even have it figured out.
Hell one religion agrees with Jesus but says he hasn’t come yet (JW’s) now how confusing is that? Certain other religions can agree about how Jesus did his thing, but they disagree on how to worship him. I severly dislike that word btw. Worship. Hee hee, morons.
Oh and as for the universe thingy.. Big bang or not, whatever happened, there had to be a big bag of nothingness, or one big rock to start. The fact that there is anything..ANYTHING at all bends my mind. When explaining this it is best to try containering things. Follow me here and it just gets out of hand. Earth; solar system; galaxies; universe; then what? What is holding that in? and the next? and why is it there? ~~~bend~~~ oww! brain cramp!!
and who’s to say that we don’t create our own reality? to a large extent, it’s true that we are the masters of our own destiny.
so maybe whatever we believe happens to us when we die really does happen. so those of us who think it’s all a big black nothingness, that will be what it is for us. and those of us who think we’ll live in a big happy place in the sky…
Well, while I wouldn’t use words like ‘moron’ to describe the faithful or those that conflict in their faith, I think I appreciate what you’re trying to say. It’s also a primary point in what I’m saying- who’s to say who’s right? Every one of those theologies is just as valid. We have no evidence making any of them any more likely than any other. Like my Time Bomb guy- that solves quite neatly the question of how it all began, and even sidesteps the question of what there was before- there was nothing before the Bomb, not even a void, because this cycle has always been going on, literally. Before the Bomb there was no ‘before’. We invented ourselves.
Impossible? So’s an omniscient and eternal sentient force.
Woo! Keep it coming! I love this stuff.
It really frustrates me sometimes, I seem to be so eloquent and well-spoken at certain points in time, and then…
to re-read my own ‘rant’ about subjects along these lines, and then read dj’s ideas, makes me feel so unevolved.
I guess my problem is that I still don’t think before I ‘speak’.
The post is awesome, dj, as is the thought behind it. and crx girl gave me quite a few more things to think about. maybe I’ll post again on it soon, maybe not.
on a related note, when I get all smarty-pants on people, I scare them off…but that doesn’t seem to be the case here :P
Nurture intelligence. Challenge wisdom. Demand independent thought. Obliterate ignorance.
Never, ever settle.
I honestly believe after a true study of the bible and religion as a whole that the Christian faith is correct. I am not talking about “false christens” or “false religion” but if you truly study the bible and find the theme and the principles that are laid out you will see that it make sense.
You said earlier something to the effect that why do people believe in the bible. Can you tell me any other book that has so much supporting history and that has lasted thousands of years translated into hundreds if not thousands of languages. Or a book that had over 33 writers spanning hundreds of years but all refer to the same theme.
There is so much supporting evidence that I still wonder why people argue this. It you wish for me to make a complete argument.. please let me know.
I get the feeling that you might be or have been associated to the Catholic Church. I dont want to be offensive or anything but I think they are a false religion. Here are a couple reasons.. 1. As you said they have idols in there place of worship, most wear a cross (these are idols) 2. Priests have been known and I am sure they still do bless the troops of armies on opposing sides and tell them to kill the troops of the same faith. (Murdering). 3. Homosexuality seems to be pretty rampant in there organization.. This is also something god hates.
If you read the bible these are NOT hidden idea by any state of the imagination.
I have made an in-depth study of the bible and many religions. But don’t take my word for it you should learn your self. DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. As you said many people are “misguided” because they don’t make the knowledge their own.
I could talk for hours about this but I would like to see your reply first.
Some of your comments really contradict themselves. For example you mentioned that most Christians celebrate Easter. Easter represents the worship of a pagan goddess and the Easter eggs have their roots in idol worship. You also mentioned Christians murdering millions of people.
Someone who knows quite about the Christian religion (or seems to think he has enough knowledge to challenge others) and refers to the bible should know that idol worship and murder are things very detestable to god. Anyone who calls him or herself a Christian and does either of these things is not a Christian at all. These are false Christians, which are also talked about in the bible.
Where’s the contradiction? You said it yourself. Christians celebrate Easter as the rebirth of Christ, which is borrowing three elements from other faiths- the rebirth of the martyr, the rebirth of life as Spring, and eggs themselves, which you know more about than I.
The idol worship is self explanatory. Describe to me the first thing you see when you walk into a church. Christ on the cross. Or perhaps just the cross itself. You’ll qualify by saying we don’t attribute any powers to these objects themselves, they are only symbols or representations, and that makes it all right. Sure. Take that. But there’s a wealth of the same thing going on in other religions that Christianity in its infinite wisdom has scorned as idol worship simply because they never choose to look any deeper.
And yes, Christians have murdered more people following God’s will than any other religion. I’m not pointing fingers, just highlighting a fact. The Pope has admitted as much. “Misguided” he said. “Misinterpretation” he said. I should hope so. But in doing so he admitted the fallibility of the Church and in doing that he has declared that people can be wrong, no matter their station or inspiration. God’s Will, he admitted, can be misinterpreted by men, because we are only human.
And with that admission he has left the door wide open for a simple argument: what if someone else is right? The Buddhists? The Muslims? The guy with the Time Bomb?
Christianity didn’t stay a unified religion for long. Interpretation has splintered them into a host of smaller groups, all claiming to be The Right Ones. Every one of them would claim that everyone else is a “false Christian”, so I ask you: who’s right, if even under the same cross you can’t all agree?
You want to know how to find out “false religion” or “false Christians”. Look at it as a comparative analysis. Say God assigns you a task and he gives you a set of values laid out in the bible (If you want I can give you the exact passages for the ten commandments, gods qualities and sighs of false profits).
You are then told to compare these values with religious organizations (like a filter). I will leave this as an exercise to you. I am not trying to convert anyone. But read your bible and look for an organization that represents those values.
Religion is not something that you do on the weekends or for a couple hours every now and then. It is a way of life.
Just so that it’s out there as someone is probably going to ask. I believe in the bible for the following reasons. You have probably all studied evolution in school possibly even in collage/university.
I have some real problems this with theory. The main one is that the earth/universe is to massive and well designed that there had to be a creator. Look at all the birds/animals/laws that govern our universe.
Take this simple but effective example. Say you see a new model (insert something you like) and it is fantastic. You assume someone made/designed/tested it. Why does man assume that the universe just appeared? This is beyond religion because I think it show a sense of ignorance. Or look at science how well designed the brain/eye’s/ears and the beauty of the opposite sex.
Why does man assume this just appear in a bang with no forethought?
Personally I think there is no room for the thought that it just happened. And logically you would also want to know why it happened.
You dropped the ball twice in one sentence, Justin. 1) God hates. 2) God hates homosexuality.
The idea that God hates isn’t exactly New Testament, is it? That’s certainly not a god I’d devote my life to.
If you are to claim that God created “it all” then you necessarily have to accept that God created the gay crowd.
Ergo: If you allow that God can hate his own creation then I suppose you can claim he hates the homosexual community. I suggest that the gay community isn’t God’s problem. It’s yours. I’m not sure what you’re afraid of though. It’s not like they’re going to steal your women. That’s the black folk, remember?
Further: you’d like to identify false Christians by comparing them to a list of Christian qualities. I’ve got news for you, son. That makes you a False Lesbian. A False New York Times Subscriber. A False Seeing Eye Dog. A False Prophet even.
Further: several times you try to use the Bible as proof that God exists. This is a circular argument, and a weak one. Men write the Bible. Men are fallible, as even the Pope has asserted. But perhaps most importantly, the Bible has been EDITED, with passages and whole Books removed or inserted to suit the times and agendas of the various splinter faiths. You know this as well as I do. Tell me this: you say that the Bible was written over centuries. If I were to present you with a new Book, claiming it was inspired directly by God, would you allow it to become part of the Bible? No? Why not? What makes something written now any more suspect than something written eight hundred years ago?
Further: (and this one is the most fun) Evolution vs Creation. You say that the Universe is too big and too well-designed. You’re missing the most fundamental argument for evolution. Everything looks and behaves the way it does because it evolved to fit a niche. It fits perfectly because it spent a million years weeding out those less perfectly suited, and we’re left with the gold.
Further: you’re saying that man is making assumptions about a scientifically explainable Universe. It would be far more accurate, and even necessary, to say that if we’re making assumptions the most obvious one is that it was all created by a mystical supreme being.
But after all is said and done, you’re trying to tell me that God hates. Sorry, Justin, but I don’t think your God is going to be very popular.
Take your time. Try to find new ways of thinking about things. If you do come back- 1) no hate mongering, and 2) no circular logic. The Bible proves nothing, because it was written by men.
You just *had* to unleash the whole God-hates-queers thing.
Bah… I am not going to get into that debate.
One thing I am going to point out, however, is a small point raised a while back about the validity of the Bible because of the vast number of writers / translations it has had… if anything, that decreases the value of the original text. The Bible we are reading now isn’t even close to the original indoctrination, I’ll wager.
The very nature of scribing (especially over a large period of time, and with adjustments to satisfy incongruent language structures) will show you that 33 different writers skews an original text.
Just to head Justin off at the pass, he’s going to tell you about the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are remarkably close in translation to the current applicable text. He’ll say THAT proves that not only is every word of the Bible true, but that it proves God exists.
Again, it’s that circular logic thing.
Bah, but even *then*, the original Scrolls were written by men with their own mortal vices. Maybe the guy who wrote the first iteration of the Bible was a drunken quack with a story to tell?
And then that was handed off a few hundred years later to a scribe who hated his job, or was secretly harbouring contempt for the church.
I agree fully with you, DJ. Humanity has altered the text of the Bible, and it is in NO WAY proof of anything other than mankind’s ongoing obsession with archiving and telling stories.
That brings up another interesting point. Two actually. Learning was often passed on orally, through the story-telling tradition, with moral lessons being taught by example. The Bible has a fantastic collection of those stories, some of them very old indeed. Second- retribution from a higher power has always been used to keep the uneducated in line, not so much in the authoritarian sense but for their own good. We’re familiar with the Muslim faith forbidding pork, and we know this is because the pig’s biology being similar enough to ours that parasites in the meat could be passed easily to us, so the religious fathers forbade it through holy command. It’s common enough before the advent of the printing press.
and just FYI – Zoroastrianism, which is considered one of the first “monotheistic” religions, came way way way (3000 years) before christianity and has VERY similar themes… and was pretty much made up by some guy who wanted to explain why life was so tough. (you get rewarded when you die!)
I’m with jesteR on the whole writing / editing of the bible. anyone want to read my honours thesis? it’s on this very topic!
Small point…
IF God created us, then he has granted us the great gift of free-will (one of His many graces)… so ending up gay, or bi, or straight or beast is entirely our fault or choosing.
IF God created us, then He set before us a path to follow AT OUR WILL. If we don’t follow it, our fault. He doesn’t LET evil eat us, we do it to ourselves.
Small point concluded.
Of course the whole FATE thing starts to irk me a bit… being that God should be all powerful and all knowing, yes? And also have this mighty free-will business…. but if he is all knowing does he not see his our future? Does somebody knowing our future destroy our free will? Surely if I know my own future I don’t have free will (I think)… but God is all knowing and knows his own future too? Does that mean he has not free will? I dunno.
You’d like to identify false Christians by comparing them to a list of Christian qualities. I’ve got news for you, son. That makes you a False Lesbian. A False New York Times Subscriber. A False Seeing Eye Dog. A False Prophet even.
Your entire argument seems to be that Christians seem to be full of it because they dont do what they say and vice versa. My point is that these are false Christians as they are not showing true Christians values. I am not here to argue with you. Have you ever heard the phrase actions speak louder than words? This is a simple concept and I am sure you understand my point.
But perhaps most importantly, the Bible has been EDITED, with passages and whole Books removed or inserted to suit the times and agendas of the various splinter faiths. You know this as well as I do. Tell me this: you say that the Bible was written over centuries. If I were to present you with a new Book, claiming it was inspired directly by God, would you allow it to become part of the Bible? No? Why not? What makes something written now any more suspect than something written eight hundred years ago?
The following sums this up (this is from the KJV)…
Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
re·li·gion
1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
1b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
That said I believe that there is a supreme power. I have deduced this through systematic research, reading and a study of others beliefs/teachings. We could argue this all day but you seem to have a prejudgment and are un-open to new ideas.
Evolution seems defy logical, but I will humour you.. But answer me this: Where did the material (atoms, hydrogen, etc.) come from to create the big bang, or where ever else took place?
err… Jonathan- You’re overlooking the overwhelmingly proven fact that homosexuality is very rarely a choice.
I will, however, grant you that as far as I know the other orientations you mention are a choice.
As long as we’re on that tack, I’m very strongly of the opinion that as long as all those concerned are consentual and no one gets hurt, it’s all good.
But that’s for another post. We’re debating the validity of an Eternal Universe vs an Eternal Supreme Being (or Gang Of)
Justin:
1) I never said Christians don’t do what they say. Not sure where you got that. I’m saying no one can possibly know the truth as absolute. Truth, in this case, will always be subjective.
2) Clearly the KJV editors felt we’d messed about with the various variations enough. Incidentally, does it contain the Book of Apocrypha? I forget.
3) That definition of religion is good enough for me. You see how it doesn’t mention anything about any need for fact? That’s faith, brother.
4) My pre-judgement, if you canm call it that, is that no one can possibly KNOW. That’s what FAITH is. I really have no idea how you can keep debating this. You certainly aren’t going to convince me that YOUR perception of God is the correct one. The rest of the entire world disagrees with you on one point or other. As for being open to new ideas, that’s what I’m here for, baby. Can you say the same?
5) Evolution is, in fact, the logical answer. It’s the one that fits the facts. It’s been proven to the point where most religious doctrines have incorporated the idea, saying that it’s part of God’s Design. To answer your question of where it all came from, I refer you to the top of this post. Start over, young Grasshopper.
Jonathan:
You bring up an awesome point. If God is omniscient then he must be able to see the future, and being able to see the future implies that the future cannot be changed. If the future CAN be changed then that implies that the future is mutable and therefore not perfect, and if the future is not perfect, then neither is God’s creation, thereby implying that God is not perfect. And if God is not perfect… well, shnykees, d00d, does that make him human?
WOO! I love this stuff. MORE MORE MORE!
Ok, time to try my hand again.
Let’s just respond to the end.
Justin, you ask mischiff if he’s open to new possibilities. Are you as well? Are you willing to re-evaluate your opinions on life, the universe, and everything or are you set in your ways because you know you’re right?
About the future. I don’t believe that omniscience definatly means that you can tell the future. Though I guess that being all knowing sort of indicates that. But then, the question is, if you knew the future, could you change it? Do we all just live a linear life, going from one step to another, or does our future depend on branches? I prefer to think of it in branches, and in that case God can be all knowing and still have free will.
About the last part of DJ’s comment. He goes from the future being mutable to God’s creation being imperfect in one fell swoop. I don’t believe you can do that. The bible says that God’s creations aren’t perfect, they make mistakes, and hey, that’s why it’s here; to direct people on the proper path.
At the same time though, I suppose God does make mistakes. After all, he told us not to eat the apple and then was surprised when we did (come on… he is omniscient…). And he let one of his angels get out of line, and we all know what happened then… a little eternal being named Satan.
About the bible. We all know the New Testament was mostly written by the apostles, after Jesus died. So, assuming that Jesus was God’s only son and sent down to teach us the way, that book has some validity. Where exactly did the Old Testament come from? It was put together over many years by wise men. Some had valid God-influenced stories (10 commandments, Noah’s ark, the burning bush, etc) and some may have just been put there cause some guy had a good idea.
There are so many unknowns in these conversations I rarely have time to keep up, apart from adding a bit here or there…
God is the inevitable response to the question: where did it all come from?
I cant believe I read all that only to be stuck in the first line of the post. I think that statement ignores a lot of the worlds religions. I havent studied them all, or even many of them, but I do know that that is not the central dogma of all religion.
My personal beliefs are similar to what crx girl mentioned: and who’s to say that we don’t create our own reality? to a large extent, it’s true that we are the masters of our own destiny. so maybe whatever we believe happens to us when we die really does happen. so those of us who think it’s all a big black nothingness, that will be what it is for us. and those of us who think we’ll live in a big happy place in the sky
God is intensely personal and he/she/it is different to each person. To me, God has nothing to do with the origins of life and everything to do with the sustenance of it, which I suppose is an origin, depending on where you start. Chicken or Egg thing.
Why this discussion seems to have centered on Christianity is perhaps why so many people get stuck in being against it. In the eyes of so many, anything bound by rules is destined to be debated. There is an exception to every rule. That is what people do to find the truth. Skepticism is at the heart of truth. Getting stuck arguing who is right is ignoring God. To me, the very essence of each person is God and you cant take that away. You are free to believe whatever you need to. My faith doesnt require that you believe it.
mah gawd! (pun not intended!) where do I start?
So glad Jaime finally brought it up… we started talking about religion and the conversation immediately drifts to Christianity. Caucasians are a minority globally speaking, by a long shot. Christianity is the religion of choice for Caucasians (yes? No?) For local thinking we tend to speak of our own enviroment and the religion we see, but what about Buddhism, Sikhism, etc? If God created all then he created these and Hindu’s too. Christians come in too many varieties for me. I can’t keep track. Catholic, Prodestant, born again, etc. There must be thousands. (over 35,000 actually, I just checked here http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm )
35,000!!! If it is all written in black and white right there on the page why do people interpret it 35,000 different ways?
The irony of most religions to me is hate. They hate each other, they hate themselves and some hate so much they kill themselves to kill some others.
oh, and god’s schedule was a little off. If he created everything in a week then why is everything so different in age? Dinosaurs were on the earth for millions of years before man, was that mentioned in the bible? what about this ‘one the seventh day’ thing?
Anyway, I shall not argue the holes for I will be rambling forever.
I leave you with this: “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Jaime: I agree.
Gurton: Umm… yes.
*grin* And I love that last quote of yours, Gurton. Love it.
Gurton, that time arguement has come before. Sadly, I can’t remember the exact passage (or where it is… shows how avid a bible reader I am!). But basically it says that God’s time is not the same as our own and that a day to God is a lifetime to us sort of thing. So the whole 7 days thing can’t exactly be taken literaly.
I just read this thread again and I came to three conclusions:
1/ I am happy to have my spirituality remain my own, and anyone who wants to believe in something else… have at ‘er. :)
2/ I like penis.
3/ I have smart friends. You guys know how to debate.
Hmm. Rahv.
oh but of course.
Like dj said. Deux ex machina. And this thread is so riduculously long I cant remember if someone mentioned where God came from. If he created everything, how was he created? Of course no one can answer that. He is just there.
I love all this stuff too, unfortunately I was in no frame of mind to make ANY sense last night, and sadly I don’t have a big post in me this morning.
mischiff: I stole that quote from Sarah who stole it from Stephen Roberts.
Wooha! One thing though, Mon Cowboy, I’m pulling Rare Administrative Vocative Exigency and changing “RAHV” to “RAV” to address the community’s concerns that the former, while being phonetically correct, fails to reflect accurate application, whereas the latter illuminates all necessary facets of the preceedings in question. Note that in the updated version the “E” is not only silent, but completely invisible to the untrained eye.
rav.
I accept your ammendment and shall ensure that all literary texts containing the aforementioned “RAHV” are adjusted accordingly.
We leave town at 8pm.
:)
and the conversation inevitably turns to the one True God, Jimi.
all hail.
bwahahahaaaaaa! Nicely done, Jaime. Actually, that made me think of a whole ‘nother post: music & religion. That’ll be fun too.
In the meantime, I’m not going for Fritz. I’m going for the mad beatz0rz.
Bahahaha.
All true, Jaime.
At the end of the day, only One Man matters.
And that Man is the white haired guy from the Glad Garbage Bag ads.
rav.
Adrian,
Holy crap! So many comments. It took me awhile to think about mine, and it turned out to be too long for a comment so I made a post on it over here:
http://www.wondermill.com/grant/archives/000924.html
And now I’m off to RAv.
.g.
I skipped a bit, for a couple of reasons. One: It’s very very very early sunday morning (or very very very late saturday night, whichever you prefer) and Two: there are 54 freakin’ posts on this!!!
good points all, mostly lucid, I agree…
One thing, however, stuck in my head that I just had to comment on:
Where did God come from?
Not just the human race, the dinosaurs, the first little lonely amoeba to crawl its sorry ass out of the muck…but where our supposed creator came from…
One thing I have always wondered – no matter what religion I happen to embrace for the time being – is where did god/gods/goddesses come from? were they born? materialize? old god died and made you god? where did he/she/it get these awesome powers to create life, light, water, foundation, etc.?
Something I’ve thought for a long time was that God (speaking singularly, to save time) created mankind/the earth/us to see where he(she/it) came from.
We’re the original and frankly, the most interesting sociological experiment there ever was. We’re like, interactive tv, really, only better. I won’t be around for the end of the season, that much is certain. But I’m really interested in knowing how it turns out.
And yet everything sounds so profound when you’re drunk…
*snicker*
are you, sir, implying that I was drunk when I posted that?! was it that crazy? *sigh* I really wasn’t, sadly enough – but now that I think about it, maybe I’ll do that now and see if I make more sense in the morning.
No no… I was reading the posts drunk…
Aww, it was way funnier the other way.
way funnier sober? or my post was way funnier if I was drunk? or am I missing the point altogether?
Missing the point…
She’s prolly drunk.
no, but at this point, that’s my plan for tonight. my bucket of margaritas and a book on the back porch is all the ambition I’ll ever need…tonight.
ps: I don’t know whats wrong with me, but I seem to be making a lot of typing mistakes…it took me 7 tries to get ‘tonight’ spelled correctly. this is pitiful.
It’s tough to type when you’re drunk, I hear.